Brothers and Sister of the Mormon faith,
I hope that you will read this post with an open heart and open mind. I am writing these things because of the love I have for you all. I know many followers of the LDS church and they are all wonderful people. The Love and help that is given out from the Mormon people is astonishing and remarkable. Your works are wonderful. However I don't think that you understand the level of deception that you are all involved in. I hope to debunk this deception in this and subsequent postings. Please read this entire article as it was written with the best of intentions.
Even your own apostle, Orson Pratt said " Convince us our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, logical argument, or by the Word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information." I intend to do just this and show how you have been deceived by the teachings of Joseph Smith and the LDS Church.
The first inconsistency between the Bible and LDS teachings I wish to point out is from the Mormon Gospel of Principles. In this book it states that everyone on earth is spirit brother and sister, and Jesus was the first spirit brother. The LDS church also believes that Jesus had to achieve Godhood and was not always a God, but once a mere man.
Gordon B Hinkley, one of the Presidents of the LDS Church stated "No I don't believe in the traditional Christ of whom they speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times." This is a shocking statement from such a prominent church member. Every Mormon I speak to says that they believe in the same Christ that I do, but this is not the case.
In Col 1:16 it states "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." The Bible here states that Jesus Christ, the true Creator and God, created everything! Again in John 1 we see "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." Again another inconsistency between the teachings of Joseph Smith and the teachings of the Bible.
The Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 states "The Father has a bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us." This is a huge inconsistency with the Bible yet again! John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
How can a supposed prophet of God teach these things that go directly against the Bible, and yet still claim the authority of the Bible? "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." God is eternal and always will be! He was not a man in a past life, he did come to earth through Jesus Christ, but he was never a mere human!
Joesph Smith stated in The Teachings of Joseph Smith, page 345, "I'm going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so you may see. He was once a man like us; yea. That God himself the Father of all of us, dwelt on an Earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did."
This quote is so wrong and scripture over and over refutes this. The Bible has held up for countless generations and is the basis for which we must test any supposed prophet or teaching.
Brigham Young once sided with Lucifer himself. In the Mormon Tabernacle he stated "The devil told the truth, what is the mystery about it? He is doing it today. He is telling one or two truths and mixing them with a thousand errors to get the people to swallow them. I do not blame Mother Eve, I would not have had her miss eating the forbidden fruit for anything in the world.” If you read Gen 3 its very clear that the serpent did in fact deceive Eve and God subsequently punished him for that! Why would a Just God punish if it was true! He wouldn't have at all.
These inconsistencies and deceptions hold huge implications for a Mormon. The true Gospel has been perverted continually by the LDS Church. You will not receive eternal life in any of the three Kingdoms that the Mormon church teaches of either. You are following a teaching that directly goes against God our Lord and you will receive eternity separated from God, the Holy of Holy, in the lake of fire! I wish this upon NOBODY, especially the good people who are deceived by the Mormon faith. Please heed these words and continue to investigate for yourself. Don't take my word for it, just realize your eternal life rests upon the choices you have made. Don't you owe it to yourself to check and double check these teachings against the Bible?
The Grace of God will be your only salvation, no works will save you. None of the Mormon commandments, none of the things you think you must do are required for salvation! Repent now and turn to the TRUE Lord Jesus Christ.
Would you follow a boastful and prideful man that puts himself above Jesus Christ? If I stated that I was visited by God and and angel and received the Word of God and then claimed that I'm better than Jesus would you not test me as the Bible has instructed you to?
Joseph Smith has boasted and claimed to be better than Jesus himself! HOW BLASPHEMOUS!! This is from the history of the church V6 p308-309. "I have more to boast than that ever any man had. I am the only man that has been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." I'm not seeing a Biblical profit here, I'm seeing a prideful and boastful man. I would NEVER follow someone who claimed to be better than the Lord Jesus Christ... Why do you continue to!?
Need more yet? Brigam Young stated in the Journal of Discourse Verse 7 page 289 that "No man or woman will enter the celestial kingdom without consent of Joesph Smith." This is placing Joseph Smith in the seat as the ultimate authority, the Judge of all Judges. Joesph Smith is not a God, there is only ONE God.
1 John 13 states " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." I know that I have eternal life, Joseph Smith has NO say in any of it. Why do Mormons take a man's word over the words of the Bible?
The Bible has withstood over time and not a single prophecy has been wrong. It has withstood archaeological research, historians, and countless other studies by people much smarter than I. Yet the LDS Faith puts its full trust into works that are only a few hundred years old and have FAILED every archaeological investigation. The LDS Church will not even commit to a map to show where the Book of Mormon took place. I can still go to Biblical cities, can you find any of the Mormon cities?
Biblical standards for a prophet are 100% accuracy, this means if a single prophecy by Joseph Smith or any of the prophets of the LDS Church do not come true or are proven wrong that these men are not speaking the word of God.
Joseph Smith stated that a temple will be built in New Jerusalem (Missouri) within a handful of years. You can go to this spot today and see that there is still NO temple. This ONE account proves that Joseph Smith is NOT a man of God.
Brigham Young once said that the sun was inhabited and Joseph Smith claimed that there are men on the moon dressed as Quakers. Does the Mormon Church still claim these things as true? They are NOT, and here is yet another lie from a supposed man of God. A man who claims to hold the keys to heaven? These things do not add up, no matter how much rationalization you have for it.
I love you all, I hope that the Lord will soften your hearts to his True word. Please I beg of you, Repent and turn to the TRUE Word of God, the Bible. Nothing more is needed. Your eternal salvation rests upon you waking up from this deception that has gone on for far too long.
I can continue to provide a TON more evidence that will show the fallacies of the LDS Church, but I feel that enough has been stated here to at least make you start to think.
I understand some of you have been in this Church since birth. This is a very hard thing to realize and admit that you are wrong, but we must be humble and accept that we make mistakes. We have all been deceived, the key is to waking up to it and making the right choices going forward.
God bless you all, I will be praying these words reach your heart and mind.
"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." ~Joseph Smith. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).
ReplyDelete"There is not a man or woman, who violates the covenants made with their God, that will not be required to pay the debt. The blood of Christ will never wipe that out, your own blood must atone for it . . . " ~Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, page 247; see also, Vol. 4, pp. 53-54, 219-220.)
"The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." ~Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).
Also, "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." ~Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).
Which is in direct contradiction to the Bible.
"Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well." ~1 Timothy 3:12,
This is understandable since Young believed he was above the Bible.
"I say now, when they [his discourses] are copied and approved by me they are as good Scripture as is couched in this Bible . . . " ~Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 264; see also page 95.)
Brigham Young thought he was enacting God's will when he ordered the killings of 120 men, women and children in what is now known as the "Mountain Meadows massacre". On a side note, there is a great movie called "September Dawn" that I highly recommend if you want to understand the false and tragic thinking of the Mormons. Chills went down my spine when they were screaming "Blood Atonement" over and over again.
Erm...Mitt Romney, and Glenn Beck, are both Mormons. Extreme Concern is very valid at this point. Especially for these elections. God have mercy on us.
awww michael! your an amazing writer but ...like ive said before...if you want people to listen you need to calm down and not be so forceful about what your trying to teach! when you speak they will listen but...ease up a little. hope all is well xo
ReplyDeletechristina
Forceful? I wrote this with concern and compassion not force. The unfortunate thing is even if I did write it with 'less force' not a single one of the Mormons that I addressed this to has read this or commented on it. In fact the only response I get from them is that I am ignorant. This is fine, I have spoken truths and done my part. The rest is up to God.
ReplyDeleteyour right the rest is up to god! its up to "us" to do his work and spread the good word but i think that your bible bashing ways need some improvement. your blog is great i just wish that you would soften your heart just a little
ReplyDeleteps Ignorance is bliss? LOL
ReplyDeleteDefine 'Bible Bashing?' I don't see what your talking about here XBox. I'm simply pointing out only a few inconsistencies. If I were being lied to I would want to know....Being told your whole up bringing was a lie and your following false teachings isn't something that can be broken gently really. It's going to sting if you have the courage to actually look at the facts. How did you feel when it started to click for you?
ReplyDeleteI understand geekgrrl's handwaving though. She is completely right if she is using the Bible to communicate a message to us.
ReplyDelete2 Timothy 2:24-26, 1 Peter 3:14-16
That being said, truth is ALWAYS confrontational because someone is on the wrong side of truth. Sye pointed out to someone else that is valid,
"[T]o those to whom the gospel message is uncomfortable, it is received quite differently. When Jesus preached in His hometown at first they were amazed at His Words, but by the end of His sermon they tried to throw Him off a cliff (Luke 4: 14-30)
The truth sometimes moves people to want to throw us off cliffs, but if we withhold the truth due to the reaction we might receive, then we are not teaching like our Lord."
Define "bashing" Xbox? Instant classic. I am making popcorn for this one. Love you both.
LMAO! Xbox! "bible bashing" quoting scriputres til your blue in the face isnt gonna help if when it seems as though your talking down to people for what they believe whether they are true or face. im simply saying if you want people to listen to your teaching you need to soften your heart and ease up on your approach. i know how it felt first hand to have you "teaching" me about the bible and it isnt easy to listen to when your come off so abrasive about it. you taught me being a "christian" is opening your heart to others no matter what...well do the same....PS dan..i want popcorn also! :) love you too
ReplyDeleteI think thats called bible thumping, bible bashing is what I typically do :)
ReplyDeleteI do agree that mormonism is ridiculous. The bible specifically states http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+22&version=KJV Revelations 22 18-19
"18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."
Michael, you should really see the book of mormon broadway (the broadway made by the southpark dudes)
if you cant see it in person, Im sure you can find youtube clips online, its hilarious
I erased a previous comment.... It is too much like a modern day fantasy but I'm a Lutheran. The girls must be REALLY bored in Utah!
ReplyDeletedaed
Utah?...LOL trust me they have fun
ReplyDeletespiffomatic64,
ReplyDelete>>I do agree that mormonism is ridiculous. The bible specifically states...
In all fairness, when the Apostle John wrote these verses, the Bible as we know it today, had not been compiled yet. So its understood that John was specifically talking about the Book of Revelation itself, in a limited sense. Does that mean he was addressing the book of Mormon in some future sense? That would be a stretch.
Besides that, Mormons have a counter already to address that point you raised. They would say "oh yea, 2 Nephi 29:6-10" which addresses what they knew would come. Resistance.
Wait, I just found out today that Candidate Jon Huntsman is a Mormon too. I just knew something was wrong with that one. :7p
ReplyDeleteThat gives a 1 in 4 chance that our next president will be a Mormon. Not that Huntsman has a fighting chance in winning. But, it does make this post all the more valid and timely.
Michael is a prophet. lol
D.A.N. while that makes sense... so many of christians throw around "The bible is the word of god"
ReplyDeleteSo would god let something be written in such a way that it looks like it means one thing, but really means another?
I mean half of the bible talks about abominations that are really just things to keep us healthy and have little to do with morals. (Eating shellfish, wearing clothes made from 2 types of material, eating pork, etc)
And yet christians are still good enough people to selectively hate homosexuals lol
talk about picking and choosing what to believe
True Christians don't hate anyone Spiff. We have been given a very bad name by many of the groups out there. The Bible teaches love, compassion, and forgiveness for all.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuals are living in sin however. As a Christian it is our duty to speak this truth to them. Unfortunately some are very hateful about this, but this is not Biblical.
...thats what confuses me Michael is "Christians" Love and accepted all but its a fine line who is loved and accepted by then....yes love, compassion and FORGIVENESS TO ALL... interesting
ReplyDeleteSpiff,
ReplyDelete>>D.A.N. while that makes sense... so many of christians throw around "The bible is the word of god"
Some are wrong. The Bible is quite clear as to the Word of God, John 1:1,14
Does not change facts. Still does not affect Salvation either.
>>So would god let something be written in such a way that it looks like it means one thing, but really means another?
God expects us to learn to properly understand and apply His Word. Granted, your free will gets in the way at times. You will NEVER understand without repentance though. This is why we really don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold it as authoritative. You are starting off, approaching it, with an incorrect assumption if you don't.
Its very important to understand that you are unable to UNDERSTAND or know the truth UNTIL you repent. Repentance comes BEFORE knowledge of truth, not after: 2 Timothy 2:24-26
Trying to show you the truth so that you can repent is wrong, you will not be able to see the truth UNTIL you repent.
>>I mean half of the bible talks about abominations that are really just things to keep us healthy and have little to do with morals. (Eating shellfish, wearing clothes made from 2 types of material, eating pork, etc)
Again we should not even be discussing these things with you. How do you know your reasoning about this or anything is valid?
I will appease in a limited way though. I am sure you heard that there are three types of Laws in the Bible. Ceremonial, Civil, Moral laws. The religion itself was the Government also, so the Israelites had a unique situation. When Christ came He fulfilled the Law. Things like Ceremonial Laws are no more because of that New Covenant as He is that Sacrificial Lamb. Civil Laws are no more because of the specificity to Israel as a nation (taxes, charging interest, punishing). That leaves with Moral Law, Morality is timeless. It still has been fulfilled by Christ though. It does not mean we are allowed to sin. Romans 7:5-7 explains that. He is that sacrificial Lamb of God, He is that "blood atonement" that the Mormons chant. So we are no longer in the Old Covenant Messianic Kingdom of David and now in Christ’s New Covenant Church Kingdom. Hebrews 7:12 explains that. ~tinyurl.com/CNCCK
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ReplyDeleteAs far as the eating selfish and pork, its discretionary. Not eating pork will not save you or damn you either way. I do not eat such things because I honor God as to His instructions. There are many thing written about it that is helpful. One I like the most is this one. They make the case that God wants to guide us to things that are healthy. Eating things that consume dead flesh (Like Lobsters, Vultures, Sharks) is not healthy. These are the garbage collectors created for the world. Shrimp are the cockroaches of the ocean. In that article, "They filter large volumes of water every day. Sewage laden with chemicals, toxins and harmful bacteria, parasites and viruses become concentrated in those shellfish... Many unclean animals, however, notably pigs and shellfish, are unhealthy because their diet consists of society's disease-laden refuse."
God wants us to eat the things created for us, by Him, to consume, i.e. clean. Its a guideline to health. Like sin, pork and shrimp are delicious. I refrain from it to honor God and health. That is a personal choice though.
>>And yet christians are still good enough people to selectively hate homosexuals lol talk about picking and choosing what to believe
OK let me rant a bit to clear THIS misconception up. You're a hot mess with these misconceptions. :7) We are here to help you though.
Love is not coddling. Perfect love is a constant confronter because it takes far more love to confront then to ignore the situation.
"And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" ~Matthew 22:39
But what does this truly mean? Does that mean we are to love them no matter what they do because we are sinners also? Do we coddle them in their sins, tell them God loves them no matter what? Nope, Jesus was clear when he said this. He was telling us what the standard was. He was pointing to the OT. The way to show your love to your neighbor is to warn them and their sins will take them to hell.
"Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbor, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the LORD." ~Leviticus 19:17-18
You're confusing hate and love here and that is disturbing. I have no clue if you have children but we correct out of love, not hate. We guide. Hebrews 12 makes that point clear.
I agree with one of your points though. Are we to hate what God hates? I say yes. What does God hate? Unrepentant sinning. That is something we all can understand that because people will not have God's "will be done" and not sin, then God is so loving that He will have their "will be done" and separate them from Him eternally. I certainly do not want disrespectful unrepentant sinning to go on around me any more. Especially for all of eternity.
how is moral timeless? Do you really believe that you, if you were to go back in time, would fit right in with the morals of jesus's time? Slavery is ok, buying/selling women is ok, I could go on but you know just as well as I that morals are societal and have changed since then.
ReplyDeleteNot talking about scripture with those that haven't drank the coolaid is pretty rediculous. I was raised very religious, which is why I know as much as I do about religion. So I followed your path. I did repent, I did all the silly rituals, and believed in their sanctity. It was only though critical reasoning and science that I've come to the conclusions I have today.
Your reasoning would mean that scientists dont have to talk about their science or data with "non-believers" of science. So scientists would get to say "global warming is real" and any skeptic couldnt discuss or ask any questions. Science and reason does not work this way. The data is out there for everyone to read and judge for themselves.
So you dont eat shelfish and pork, what about using diving weights (scuba), or wearing cotton/polyester blend clothes?
as to the hate thing, that sounds very nice... but, if what you are saying is true, then you are at odds with gods will. If you find something morally wrong in what someone else finds pleasure... You have some level of hate towards them. It may not be blind hate, but there should be a degree of hate their. Otherwise you are basically condoning it.
At least you have the honesty to admit that you should hate what god hates... Now the tricky part of guessing what god hates.
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>> Slavery is ok, buying/selling women is ok, I could go on but you know just as well as I that morals are societal and have changed since then.
This equivocation of yours was quite apparent. You see, this is why I don't discuss Scripture with those that don't hold it as authoritative. Yes, Biblical slavery is perfectly OK and fell into the catagory of CIVIL LAW. They did not have things like chapter 11 bankruptcy "avenues" back then. It was a form to pay off debt, mostly voluntary. This was debt that could not be written off like today. There would be a lot less frivolous spending if it were still around though. Before you get in an uproar the US Slavery was wrong. It impeded on liberties of individuals.
Side note, speaking of frivolous spending, I just read that it took 43 presidents 220 years to accumulate $6.3 trillion of national debt combined. According to the White House's own Office of Management and Budget, President Obama is on pace to borrow and spend more then that ($6.5 trillion) in just ONE TERM!
As far as buying woman, its still going on today, and you would have to ask Michael about that. Hookers are his thingy. :7) Again its an agreed upon transaction though.
>>I was raised very religious, which is why I know as much as I do about religion.
Not much apparently. Evidenced by your misconceptions about the Bible and God.
>> So I followed your path.
Wrong. If you would have you'd be a Christian today. Parable of the Sower speaks volumes about this.
>>It was only though critical reasoning and science that I've come to the conclusions I have today.
How do you know that your reasoning about this, or anything, is valid?
Funny, read sad, how Eve did the very same thing you did. She placed God on the docket and judged Him with her own reasoning. She made herself her own god. You, today, worship the same god as Satanists do, and that is the god of "self". Faith is not "blind" its synonymous with trust. We Christians trust God and His plan, and that is the difference. You were never a Christian yet. [1John 2:19, John 10:28 ] But, that is good news though. There is still time left, just don't die before your repentance and subsequent knowledge.
>>The data is out there for everyone to read and judge for themselves.
Agree! Its just the interpretation of said data, and secular presuppositions, is the problem. Not the data itself.
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ReplyDelete>>what about using diving weights (scuba),
*sigh "We all have rescuing devices. We're going to interpret Scripture with the revelation that God does not lie. You will interpret it with your "subjective" view of logic. I can reconcile certain things the Bible says to a Christian, and we do. I am not going to reconcile with non Christians because you are going to bring your assumptions that God doesn't exist, that God can lie..."
That being said, with patience I will tell you as a quick Bible study, in Deuteronomy 25:13 if that is what you are talking about, Divers weights (Strong's H68 - 'eben ) - i. e. stones of unequal weights, the lighter to sell with, the heavier to buy with. A quick search of the etymology of that word would reveal that. Remember the Hebrew words were being translated back then for King James. The ESV translates it to "You shall not have in your bag two kinds of weights, a large and a small." Stones were used by the Jews instead of brass or lead for their weights, as less liable to lose anything through rust or wear. It was a measurement for trade. God is saying be honest. Do not use different stones for your transactions. Repentance would of revealed this eventually. More importantly though is that this reveals your DOGMA against the Bible. I was an Atheist too at one point in my life, I understand where you're coming from.
>>or wearing cotton/polyester blend clothes?
I did not look up anything as far as that is conscerned because I would be here all day for your "resistance" But at face value, its good advice. My babies would rash up and overheat at night wearing polyester, or blended, clothing. Cotton breaths and the blends are garbage and dangerous for infants. I agree with God. What of it? Let me guess, you don't trust God? BTW, that was a rhetorical question. We all know the answer.
>> If you find something morally wrong in what someone else finds pleasure... You have some level of hate towards them.
Wrong! We would have to hate everyone then because thee is none that is good, "no not one". Romans 3:10 Compassion and concern, as I just explained. God so loved the world he gave His Son, for Salvation of that person. There is no sin too great for God to forgive through His Son. For that, I am grateful for His, undeserved, Grace.
>>At least you have the honesty to admit that you should hate what god hates... Now the tricky part of guessing what god hates.
You mean besides your unrepentant resistance? You're literally storing up God's wrath upon yourself. Just let that be a warning out of concern for you. ~Romans 2:5
You want to know what God hates? Look into that "atheistic" mirror.
to slavery http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery#Sexual_and_conjugal_slavery
ReplyDelete>>Not much apparently. Evidenced by your misconceptions about the Bible and God.
you are just assuming that anyone who was raised religious, and reaches a different conclusion than you did was raised wrong. So there is no way to be offered religion, and take issue with it logicaly.
I don't know my reasoning is valid for sure, just like I don't know religion is right for sure. I know within a certain degree of certainty. And by the way, to KNOW something requires data, to NOT know something requires none… If someone says "I do not believe in god" They need nothing to back this up, as it is the default. You need to have reasoning behind believing in something, otherwise its blind faith.
The scariest part about religion is how it is scared of, or hates science/logic. If god gave you a brain, he would want you to use it. Why religious people hold anyone who criticizes or judges religion as evil… is beyond me. If god exists, and gave us our brains, he would want us to use them to question him.
Sorry about the divers misconception, it looks like I was wrong when I read that. Thanks for correcting me :)
As to the clothing, so you wear only cotton materials yourself?
Please if we are going to have a discussion lets not let this devolve into "God's gonna get you"
If you are actually religious you should refrain from passive aggressively telling me that you hate me.
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>>you are just assuming that anyone who was raised religious, and reaches a different conclusion than you did was raised wrong.
There is ALWAYS someone on the wrong side of truth. Raised wrong? Irrelevant. Ending wrong, is what I am concerned with.
>>If someone says "I do not believe in god" They need nothing to back this up, as it is the default.
Equivocation again? Wrong again. Its not a passive, neutral position, as God has revealed Himself to you. God has revealed Himself to all mankind so that we can know for certain who He is. Those who deny His existence are suppressing the truth in unrighteousness to avoid accountability to God. It is the ultimate act of rebellion against Him and reveals the professing Atheist's contempt toward God.
It certainly is not a "lack of belief" (bit.ly/lackofbelief), its a refusal to believe. Howard huge difference.
>>And by the way, to KNOW something requires data
So then you JUST contradicted yourself. ~Romans 1:18-23 God does not send people to Hell for denying something they are not certain about.
>>I don't know my reasoning is valid for sure, just like I don't know religion is right for sure.
Great! Just as long as you understand that "Atheism is a chosen metaphysical position, therefore a religious position."
It is simple though, a true religion is from the Creator. It is a result of our hope and trust in God. It is an external response. It is the natural fruit. False religions have stolen from God and not the other way around. False religions have a common denominator and that is there assault on the term "Justification." They are working toward their salvation. We are working as a result of our salvation. We have been made clean by the Word, Jesus. The false religions make themselves clean. Simple as that.
>>I know within a certain degree of certainty.
But you are not certain about that though, right? As you just admitted that "I don't know my reasoning is valid for sure" If so, how are you certain of this?
Did you even address Sye's question? "Could you perhaps tell me one thing that you know and how you are able to know it? " If you do not know your reasoning is valid for sure, that is.
>>The scariest part about religion is how it is scared of, or hates science/logic.
Straw man. Nice atheist soundbite though, do you have an original thought? You do understand that it was a Christians who created the scientific method and most all of the universities to educate people about it. Even the "big bang" was theorized by a Priest and Eisenstein denied that data, because of the implications, and for the longest time believed in the steady state universe because of his presuppositions. Your all over the place here and your apparent desperation is sad.
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ReplyDelete>>If [G]od gave you a brain, he would want you to use it.
Yea, to understand simple things like "divers weights" as not merely scuba equipment. take your own advice...Student.
>>Why religious people hold anyone who criticizes or judges religion as evil… is beyond me.
False religions are evil. Especially the religion you currently bow to.
>>As to the clothing, so you wear only cotton materials yourself?
Mostly, sure. I eat organic foods too. Both are more "natural". Pesticides are a man made construct that is ruining us.
>>Please if we are going to have a discussion lets not let this devolve into "God's gonna get you"
So deny truth? Why? I overestimated you position as a striving for truth. Look, I fully understand that truth always is confrontational, there is always someone on the wrong side of truth. This is a very serious and real subject for me. If I didn't love you enough to tell you the truth, then I wouldn't. Truth hurts, I understand.
>>If you are actually religious you should refrain from passive aggressively telling me that you hate me.
I am a Christian. I do not wish to be lumped together with your, or other false, religions. Buddhism is a atheistic religion too. Catholicism wishes to help Hitler reign and aid the pedophiles of the world. Christianity is not the same as those false religions...as explained. Its an equivocation error once again. You need to brush up on fallacies, and your critical thinking skills. God gave you a brain after all.
not believing in god, is a lack of belief, I agree that anyone who claims to KNOW there is no god is just as faithful as a religious person.
ReplyDeleteIm not certain, Just like with everything in my life, its all based on data I have seen and experienced. Until we can prove with a p value smaller than 0.05 there is a god… It does not make sense to me.
as to "knowing anything" no, nothing can be known for certain. We use something called a p value to determine the reliability of a certain phenomenon.
desperation is sad? Im not the one insulting the other one here… lets just remember that.
To be fair, its not just the religious that are denying science these days… it seems to be ALOT of people who do not value intellect. But when a large portion of people who deny evolution align themselves with religion, its hard for me to not assume some things.
Im not saying that its impossible to be a scientist and be religious. Im just going on data I've seen before on science and religion http://www.physorg.com/news102700045.html
lol wow student? you are getting awfully riled up there.
I don't bow to any religion. I simply do not believe something without data.
Truth can be told without insulting. Just saying
Catholicism is christian… pretty sure about that… I understand you not wanting to be associated with them, but for better or for worse… They are christian. You cannot simply say any christian who you disagree with is not a christian…
This thread has morphed into a discussion of "hates" and "morals". We have a collective consciousness that is being ignored by rigorous religious dogma; it never ends. I am pleased to see the comment from spiff that delineates morals according to the timeline of human experience. To get us back on track in reference to the continueing practice of polygamy by Mormons I would like to note that polygamy has a certian "moral reference" in time.
ReplyDeleteThe first inference of condoned polygamy that I am aware of dates back to aproximately 1000 A.D. through the time of the Crusades. It concerns religious edicts imposed by sharia law in the middle east. At that time men were in short supply due to a short lifespan; war, disease, famine, and overwork in an extremely desolate climate shift brought about a demographic fact that men died younger than women. The Mullahs decided to issue an edict to rectify the situation for women in general who could not get married. The Koran discusses this situation in detail and also states the conditions under which this idea would be revoked. (moral weighting)
Times have changed. I'm attempting to shock this discussion by making comments regarding Islam. The Christian sphere of influence in this day and age is shrinking as more and more pantheistic attitudes are emerging; these attitudes are not based in religion alone. The collective consciousness is maturing as our species evolves mentally. This is a moral shift to the left that is tempered by science and common sense. The world is sick of right wing fanatics that thump text and berate people on the grounds of being "superior". How many idiotic 30 Years War situations do we need to prove that attrition does not make sense? Chock one up for population control, Lord knows we need that now. No, it is not morally right in this day and age for a single man to have 2 or more wives in my view. The Mormons place in this world is a short one; less than the blink of a millenial eye.
daed
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>>not believing in god, is a lack of belief
argumentum ad nauseam Did you use your reasoning to make this determination? If so, how do you know that your reasoning about this or ANYTHING is valid?
>>I agree that anyone who claims to KNOW there is no god is just as faithful as a religious person.
OK so then you are a religious person then. QED
>>as to "knowing anything" no, nothing can be known for certain.
Are you certain of this Spiff? If so, how are you certain of it? If not, you have no argument.
>>Im not the one insulting the other one here…
How do you know this? You're denying God, that is quite insulting. I deny your existence.
>> To be fair, its not just the religious that are denying science these days… it seems to be ALOT of people who do not value intellect.
Is man's intellect superior? Look up "cult of Science" to reveal some of your dogmatic approach to science.
>>But when a large portion of people who deny evolution align themselves with religion, its hard for me to not assume some things.
I want to know how you know that your reasoning about ANYTHING is valid? Could you, for instance, be wrong about EVERYTHING that you know? Even evolution?
>>I don't bow to any religion. I simply do not believe something without data.
That is intellectually dishonest Spiff. The data is there. Even your own ability to reason. You cry "where is the evidence?" Yet, there is none according to your worldview.
"In fact, that cannot be evidence for God if he is a naturalist, or an atheist. Because according to him its not possible to have evidence for God. If he is in fact an atheist in terms of his views on reality, then all of these things must be reinterpreted so they are regimented, or will conform to, will comport with that man's naturalism, or atheism." ~goo.gl/eXHT1
You hold a very narrow dogmatic position. A religious position. I wish you were just more honest about it. BTW, the "student" comment was a dig and mere playful banter. I thought you would be intellectual enough to understand that. Sorry for giving you that credit. :7p ← <-- there
>Truth can be told without insulting. Just saying
You're insulting my inelegance to say there is no evidence for God. BTW, assuming that the Bible is not evidence for God, because you do not believe God exists, is question begging.
>>Catholicism is christian… pretty sure about that… I understand you not wanting to be associated with them, but for better or for worse… They are christian.
How do you know this? I would think the ONE to determine who is or who is not a Christian is the one that bears that name. Christ! A 'claim' of Christianity doth not make one so. You are a fine example of that.
>>You cannot simply say any christian who you disagree with is not a christian…
How about disagrees with Jesus Christ? I have nothing to do with that here? Moving the goal posts noted though.
OK my wife and kids are insisting I have a life with them also. They are dogmatic about it also.
As far as my reasoning, Im basing it on my school and grammar understanding. Not believing in god, is not the same as believing there is no god. Its a subtle grammatical difference, but its a big difference in meaning.
ReplyDeleteI have never said that I know anything for certain. ESPECIALLY not whether there is a god or not.
"in·sult/inˈsəlt/
Verb: Speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse.
Noun: A disrespectful or scornfully abusive remark or action.
"
I am not disrespecting your beliefs, just stating my own.
I Could be wrong about everything, based on the data, and previous logics applied to life and science I do feel confident in most of my thoughts on life, but definitely not all.
>>That is intellectually dishonest Spiff. The data is there. Even your own ability to reason. You cry "where is the evidence?" Yet, there is none according to your worldview.
This is not correct. The one thing I do have is data, what the data means… is up for discussion, which is why science is so great. Even evolution has undergone changes over the years. Nothing in science is set in stone or "certain" Its all probabilistic and dynamic understanding.
While you half apologized you are still being intentionally hurtful. Not very christian.
The bible is a book written by people, and I'm not sure many people consider it proof that god exists. I could be wrong, but that concept dosnt make sense to me. That would be like me saying darwins book on evolution is proof that evolution exists.
And again with the personal attacks. Please just try to stay civil here, That was one of the requests michael made when starting this blog. While I agree none can claim to be christian, many still do.
The problem with "disagreeing with jesus christ" is problematic because of the bible. It can, has, and will be mis-interpreted.
Was the last line really an attempt to impress me?
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>>As far as my reasoning, Im basing it on my school and grammar understanding.
Spiff, you are not justifying your ability to reason, you are telling us where you learned things. For the sake of this argument, I could not care less where you learned anything. I want to know how you know that your reasoning about ANYTHING is valid? Could you, for instance, be wrong about EVERYTHING that you know?
>>I have never said that I know anything for certain.
Are you certain you never said that you know anything for certain? How do you know you haven't?
it is impossible to know anything absent certainty. I'll show you what I mean: tell me one thing that you know, absent certainty?
>>I am not disrespecting your beliefs, just stating my own.
Is this a matter of opinion? God says you KNOW Him for certain. You claim He is a liar and deny that, and Him. That is insulting to our Creator and His followers.
Let's do an exercise. You can "claim" all you want that your Mom exists, I just don't believe it. You have not given evidence that she does.
>>Nothing in science is set in stone or "certain" Its all probabilistic and dynamic understanding.
But, of course, you are not certain of that even. You see this is a perfect example of a knowledge claim for us to examine. You speak as if you are certain that science is all probabilistic and dynamic understanding. Are you?
>>While you half apologized you are still being intentionally hurtful. Not very christian.
Is being hurtful wrong? Keep in mind you cannot get an "ought" from an "is". How can anything be 'wrong' in your atheistic worldview? Is morality subjective?
>>It can, has, and will be mis-interpreted.
But you're not certain of that. Right?
>>Was the last line really an attempt to impress me?
No, but it revealed something quite effectively. Christpher Titus called it the douchebag test and for the time being I will grade you on a curve to help your score. If I am smacking on the back of the head, its for your benefit. I am not the one in real dire trouble here. If you get bruised from trying to pull you from the flames, so be it.
On civility:
I am doing my very best to help you out. Remember in Pulp Fiction when Vincent (John Travolta) said to Wolf "A please would be nice."
Wolf said "Get it straight buster - I'm not here to say please, I'm here to tell you what to do and if self-preservation is an instinct you possess you'd better do it and do it quick! I'm here to help - if my help's not appreciated then lotsa luck, gentlemen."
Vincent: "I don't mean any disrespect, I just don't like people barking orders at me."
The Wolf: "If I'm curt with you it's because time is a factor. I think fast, I talk fast and I need you guys to act fast if you wanna get out of this. So, pretty please... with sugar on top. Clean the car!"
And scene.
So if I am curt with you it's because time really is the factor and you could die tomorrow. So pretty please with sugar on top, repent and turn from rejecting the God you know exists, and accept the free gift of Jesus Christ's payment for your sins, so that you might be saved from Hell, spend an eternity with God, AND have a firm foundation for your reasoning NOW.
DAN you've asked me this a number of times. and every time I've answered, I could be wrong about everything. I only know things within a certain degree or certainty. example, a dog chases a tennis ball 99 times once thrown, how certain are you that it will the 100th time? You can't be certain for sure, but you do know within a certain degree of certainty.
ReplyDeleteNow you are just playing semantic word games. As I said before, the level of certainty I have about anything changes based on the level of data I have about the subject.
I cannot help if an opinion of mine on something you take personal offense to. It was not my intention. Unlike the hurtful things you have been saying that are intended to be harmful.
About the mom exercise I completely agree. WIthout evidence you have no reason to believe she exists.
Again I am certain based on a large about of data I have seen on science. Its completely possible that it may not always stay this way. But based on what I have read in science journals and my fiancé getting her phd at princeton. I feel pretty certain.
I never said its wrong, thats assume morals which I do not believe are universal. I am using the word hurtful because I believe that christians do not cause harm intentionally.
The certain game is wearing thin, but again my certainty is based on the amount of data I have seen on the subject.
Im not against you being frank with me because you would like to "save" me, I am referring to the blatantly hurtful statements you have been making. They serve no purpose but to cause harm. Most christens do not make fun of the people they are trying to save whilst doing so. Has michael ever made fun of me while we were discussing things? No.
A simple apology, or explanation that you got frustrated with our discussion and decided to take it out on me would be understandable. But trying to justify the obviously hurtful statements, that served no other purpose than to mock, is not very christian at all. And before you ask, I am only as certain about my believe that christians should not mock/hurt people as the data (what I have read in the bible, and talked to my old minister) I have experience.
I am sorry if this discussion has gotten out of hand michael, I was trying to keep it civil.
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>>I only know things within a certain degree or certainty.
Well do you concede that an omniscient, omnipotent being could reveal things to us, such that we can be certain of them?
>>You can't be certain for sure, but you do know within a certain degree of certainty.
But you are not certain about even that, right? You see, I am trying to get you to see the problem with your worldview here. You are saying that you're certain (Knowledge claim) that you can't be certain for sure. Its absurd.
How do you KNOW you do know within a certain degree of certainty? How? Could you be wrong about even that?
>>Unlike the hurtful things you have been saying that are intended to be harmful.
Bare assertion now? How do you KNOW that they are intended to be harmful? It is a knowledge claim after all. Are you absolutely certain of that? If so, how?
>>About the mom exercise I completely agree. Without evidence you have no reason to believe she exists.
Wow that didn't work. I see the mistake I made though, I left wiggle room and put her in the present tense, i.e. exists. I should have said" existed." So by your mere existence does NOT give evidence you have a Mom? I know for certain you have a Mom,...because YOU exist!! Even if she has passed you DO have a Mom still. Same goes for God. That was my point.
>>Again I am certain based on a large about of data I have seen on science. Its completely possible that it may not always stay this way. But based on what I have read in science journals and my fiancé getting her phd at princeton. I feel pretty certain.
Do you use your reasoning when you reason about even this? Obviously you do, which makes your position viciously circular. We both trust our senses and reasoning, but of the two of us, I can justify doing so in a non-viciously circular fashion, you cannot.
>>They serve no purpose but to cause harm
But you are not absolutely certain about that. The entire atheistic worldview is necessarily based upon a relativistic worldview, and due to that, they must necessarily deny the existence of absolutes. These obviously ridiculous claims stem from the fact that they do not believe in a universal, abstract higher authority that has defined absolutes.
“[A]n evolving, chance universe cannot account for absolute, unchanging, universal laws of logic. Indeed, absolute law contradicts the notion of incessant change which necessarily involves relativism.” ~Bahnsen GL (2007) Pushing the Antithesis: The Apologetics Methodology of Greg L. Bahnsen, American Vision, Powder Springs, GA, 207
>>Most christens do not make fun of the people they are trying to save whilst doing so.
I cannot help if an opinion of mine on something you take personal offense to. It was not my intention.
I am sorry if this discussion has gotten out of hand Michael, I was trying to keep it logical.
That went out the window a while back. :7p
I do concede its possible, we just have no proof of it (other than circumstantial and anecdotal evidence)
ReplyDeleteIf a scientist could prove god existed, they'd win the nobel prize, in just about every category.
Listen, I understand your "certainty" game. I am not even certain about it not being possible to be certain. Its possible in the future we figure out grand unified theory, and can theoretically "know" everything from here on out. You are agreeing with me that being certain of anything is absurd. (it sounds like)
I know they are intended to be harmful because they are just accusations towards me, what would that accomplish other than to make me feel bad?
Ill get real nerdy with the mom thing… Scientists have been able to reproduce cell membranes, I don't think its impossible in the future for us to even recreate eggs to artificially inseminate. So while I agree with you (in that you can be somewhat certain of things in life, even those things are not KNOWN, but understand as very very probable)
I justify my reasoning based on the data I have accumulated through life, just like you did. We learn things are more and more probable the more we observe them. But to be absolutely certain of something its pretty impossible in my point of view. (but I could be wrong) which is the beauty of science. Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." - Richard Feynman
But thats the thing… the universe is constantly changing, we are finding new values for constants all the time. Thats whats so great about science.
I take no offense to your opinions, just the statements directed at me that are intended to degrade.
You have taken offense to my opinions, none of which (at least I don't remember any of which, and if I did I appologise) were directed at you
I love this blog of michaels and talking about theology, I just hope we can keep this a little more civil in the future
Religious debates will always stir up a bit of hostility weather we intend it or not. As D.A.N has stated only one person is on the right side of truth. The issue is both people think that it is them.
ReplyDeleteI don't feel that this thread has gotten out of hand. If I feel a post is out of line I will delete it. I do moderate all of these postings (and D.A.N. has that ability as well).
I love you all and appreciate all the feedback this has generated. Unfortunately this conversation has drifted a long was from Mormonism. These discussions should continue back at the "Righteous Apologetic."
Thanks again to everyone for posting and following. Please put the word out as its always great to have more input and readers. I'll be posting again soon, but for now I'm doing research on the topic and enjoying the entertainment provided by the two of you.
God Bless.
If you believe our conversation is offensive, we haven't even started...
ReplyDelete“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?” (1 Corinthians 1: 18-20)
“The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14)
"A fool takes no pleasure in understanding but only in expressing his opinion."~ Proverbs 18:2
And speaking of pressing the antithesis...
[to be cont'd]
[cont'd]
ReplyDeleteIn scriptural perspective the fool is not basically a shallow-minded or illiterate ignoramus; he can be quite educated and sophisticated in social reckoning. However, he is a fool because he has forsaken the source of true wisdom in God in order to rely on his own (allegedly), self-sufficient, intellectual powers. He is unteachable (Prov. 10:8) and despises instruction (Prov. 15:5); whereas the wise man heeds counsel given to him, “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes” (Prov. 12:15). The fool has utter self-confidence and imagines himself to be intellectually autonomous. “He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool” (Prov. 28:26). A fool cannot think of himself as mistaken (Prov. 17:10). He judges matters according to his own pre-established standards of truth and right, and thus his own thoughts always turn out in the long run to be correct. The fool is sure that he can rely on his own rational authority and intellectual scrutiny. “The fool beareth himself insolently and is confident” (Prov. 14:16), and therefore he utters his own mind (Prov. 29:11). In actuality, this autonomous man is dull, stubborn, boorish, obstinate and stupid. He professes himself to be wise, but from the opening of his mouth it is clear that he is (in the biblical sense) “a fool”—his only wisdom would consist in keeping silent (Prov. 17:28). “The heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness” (Prov. 12:23), and the fool flaunts his folly (Prov. 13:16). He eats up folly unreflectingly (Prov. 15:14), pours it out (Prov. 15:2), and returns to it like a dog to his vomit (Prov. 26:11). He is so in love with his folly and so dedicated to its preservation that “It is better for a man to meet a bear robbed of her whelps, than a fool in his folly” (Prov. 17:12). The fool does not really want to find the truth; he only wants to be self-justified in his own imaginations. While he may feign objectivity, “A fool hath no delight in understanding, but only that his heart may reveal itself” (Prov. 18:2). He is committed to his own presuppositions and wishes to guard his autonomy. Thus he will not depart from evil (Prov. 13:19), and thus all his knowledgeable talk reveals nothing but perverse and lying lips (Prov. 10:18; 19:1). He may talk proudly, but “A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul” (Prov. 18:7). He shall not endure the judgment of God (Ps. 5:5). How does a man become such a self-deluded, allegedly autonomous, fool? A fool despises wisdom and instruction, refusing to begin his thinking with reverence toward the Lord (Prov. 1:7). He rejects God’s commandments (Prov. 10:8) and even dares to reproach the Almighty (Ps. 74:22; Job 1:22). “The thought of foolishness is sin” (Prov. 24:9). The fool will not be governed by God’s word; he is lawless, just as his thinking is lawless (i.e., sinful, 1 John. 3:4). ~Bahnsen, Greg; Booth, Robert (2011-03-03). Always Ready: Directions for Defending the Faith
Ouch, I understand why you are so offended. I would hate to be on the receiving end of this, and that is why I submitted as a defeated and humble man to Christ. You are, after all, an enemy of God and His wrath is being stored up upon you, daily.
Thankfully Scripture has answers for people like you Spiff to: ”Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.” Titus 3:10 (I’ll let you read verse 11 on your own.)
Feel free to hate all you want, I will continue to be kind and care for those around me regardless of my differences with them. When I was christian, that was one of the most core beliefs I had. Maybe you are right in that I was never a true christian. But I really used to think thats what christianity was all about.
ReplyDeleteWhile eternal damnation is a great tool used to scare people into religion, have you ever considered what if you were wrong? What if you spent this life, the only one you had being so hateful and lashing out at your fellow man? Isnt that just as bad as eternal damnation? Maybe even worse because you are making the lives of others worse as well?
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>> Feel free to hate all you want
Strawman. Perfect love is a constant confronter. Its not hate. We have been through this, ad nauseum.
>> I will continue to be kind and care for those around me regardless of my differences with them.
Is " kind and care" right, not wrong? Again, if this is merely your arbitrary opinion, I am not interested.
>>Maybe you are right in that I was never a true christian.
You can bet your life on it...because you are. I do appreciate and encourage that honesty.
>>But I really used to think thats what christianity was all about.
But obviously that's not absolutely true is it? All you are left with is arbitrary opinion, and sorry, but for the purposes of this discussion, I really don't care about your opinion.
You see, atheism has no absolutes - including logic, truth, morality ...But if there are no logical absolutes nothing can be known and nothing can be proved or disproved.
Again, you were clueless and wrong. Its understandable, as there are many false converts claiming things, as leaders, that are wrong. God alone will give you the knowledge that you're saved, as He has done for me. I am absolutely certain of that fact. [Proverbs 3:5-6, 1 John 2:27]
>>While eternal damnation is a great tool used to scare people into religion, have you ever considered what if you were wrong?
First, are facts tools? Second, I don't "think" God exists, I know it for certain, as it is impossible to know anything absent certainty.
I'll show you what I mean: tell me one thing that you know, absent certainty?
>>What if you spent this life, the only one you had being so hateful and lashing out at your fellow man?
This fallacy is called "irrelevant thesis." It does not pertain to this conversation here. Is correcting someone heading down a false path, hateful and lashing out? Otherwise, irrelevant.
>>Isnt that just as bad as eternal damnation?
I would rather have someone fight me to the death, bruised and bloody, trying to help me out of a burning building then to let me burn up.
"If sinners be damned, at least let them leap to Hell over our bodies. If they will perish, let them perish with our arms about their knees. Let no one go there unwarned and unprayed for." ~C.H. Spurgeon
>>Maybe even worse because you are making the lives of others worse as well?
This is not to make the ride more comfortable. BTW, that comment reminds me of the parachute analogy. That is not my purpose here. Please read it, I am thinking that is what you were taught in the past. And the reason why you were led down a false path.
I know you believe I hate you, but I really don't. I could just go play with the new puppies and my other kids and have a great day of it. Instead, my heart is aching for you to repent. Its people that are perishing, like you, that keeps me up at night. The thought of that ACTUALITY is so frightening, I want to do ALL I can to help you out of that fire. Even if its all out of my hands. If you are bruised along the way...so be it. Bruises heal. Your eternal burning flesh will not.
All anyone has is their opinion in regards to religion. You can claim you know "true" christianity, but you will be in line with just about every other christian who has a different interpretation of the religion.
ReplyDeleteThings can be proven to a certain degree, this is why you have medicine and computers. Even computers are not absolute, things like cpu and ram all have probabilistic percentages with their reliability.
I can tell you a life's worth of things I know without certainty. I know that every time I've ever dropped something, it has fallen to the ground. I am not certain that it will always continue to do this, but one thing I know… is the data. This is how science works.
I wouldn't mind you correcting me, but being so abrasive and simply saying things that are purposed at putting someone else down like "do you have an original thought" along with a number of other needless insults in this thread does not help your cause (at least from my point of view)
I was not taught to believe in jesus only to escape hell. I have heard this referred to as "fire insurance religion"
If you truly care for the people you are trying to save, being abrasive to convince someone is fine, but statements that serve no other purpose than to put the other person down do not seem very christian to me.
I know you will defend your insults as "tools to save people" but I don't think many people would see the light to christianity after being insulted by one.
There are a lot of great things about religion, its a shame more people don't rely on these great things while trying to convert others. It would make more sense to me to talk of turning the other cheek, gods forgiveness, the morals of the ten commandments, I don't need to list anymore as you know them well.
Im not saying to "hide" the judgmental portions of the bible. Im just saying to not say things like "I overestimated you position as a striving for truth" "You need to brush up on fallacies, and your critical thinking skills" etc
I will not reply to this thread anymore as we have completely derailed from the main point. Lets try to be a bit more "christian" on the next one. (I mean this in the adjective use of the word, not to say you are not a christian, but closer to the "WWJD" definition)
I could be wrong, but I don't remember jesus ever insulting the people he disagreed with. It seemed like it was much more of his followers and their writings that later had all of the abomination and fool talk. But again, you would know better than I.
Spiff,
ReplyDelete>>I know that every time I've ever dropped something, it has fallen to the ground. I am not certain that it will always continue to do this, but one thing I know… is the data. This is how science works.
But, of course, you cannot base the certainty that gravity will not change. Doesn't that sound foolish to you?
With that logic, you have just proven that I am immortal. You see Spiff, every day that I’ve been alive, I haven’t died, therefore I will never die. You are begging the question.
>>I wouldn't mind you correcting me, but being so abrasive and simply saying things that are purposed at putting someone else down like "do you have an original thought" along with a number of other needless insults in this thread does not help your cause (at least from my point of view)
Whatever dork! It was you who started with the whole "Not talking about scripture with those that haven't drank the coolaid is pretty rediculous."
You compared Christians to a cowardly cult leader that committed murder/suicide. You didn't even spell ridiculous right and you get all butthurt when I call you a student? Give us a break.
It was YOU who started to get offensive, then when I push back a little bit and you cower with your hands over your head and behind 'that is not how Christians are supposed to be' garbage. Man up dude!
>>I will not reply to this thread anymore as we have completely derailed from the main point.
Run puppy, run! Keep in mind student that it was YOU who started the conversation derailed with your...
"I mean half of the bible talks about abominations that are really just things to keep us healthy and have little to do with morals. (Eating shellfish, wearing clothes made from 2 types of material, eating pork, etc)"
You're a tool! This is not an insult either, its pure empirical evidence. Wake up dude!
>>Lets try to be a bit more "christian" on the next one. (I mean this in the adjective use of the word, not to say you are not a christian, but closer to the "WWJD" definition)
What a condescending tool. Take your own advice you complete hypocrite! 'Iif you pretend that you have nothing against [Christians] but think that what they are doing is "wrong" and an abomination. You are being passive aggressive.' You wander why the Bible calls you a fool?
Now you are not in denial about your own passive aggressiveness. You do not even have the respect for others to use a title with a capitol "C" in Christian or "G" for God. Who are you trying to convince here? Me or you?
Christian is or is not. There is no "scale" of being "more Christian" dork.
Bahnsen, and even Scripture, was completely right about you when he pointed out this autonomous man is dull, stubborn, boorish, obstinate and stupid. He professes himself to be wise, but from the opening of his mouth it is clear that he is (in the biblical sense) “a fool”—his only wisdom would consist in keeping silent (Prov. 17:28).
The empirical evidence of this thread of comments of yours reveals that quite clearly. Repent! Its your ONLY hope. (that is your second warning if you're keeping count of Titus 3:10-11, have you even read 11 yet?)
uhg, ok this is seriously the last post.... If I dont post after this, its not because I feel you are correct, but that this thread has gotten off topic and we can rant at each other on michaels next post :)
ReplyDeleteto gravity and immortality. I base my certainty not only on the data that has occurred to just me, but those around me as well. And since I see people dying from age around 80 ish, and from a number of other causes, I believe I will die from either one of those causes or from old age around 80. This is based on data.
I apologize for the koolaid comment, and my spelling. I didnt think the spelling would offend anyone lol, for the koolaid, it was not meant to be a direct reference to the cult, but the more abstract reference going around in society today of "follow some someone else says without thinking about it for yourself". Once again I apologize.
I dont think what most christians are doing is wrong. I think that the christians who hate homosexuals and do anything they can to make their lives harder, or anyone elses for that matter is wrong (not cosmically, but personally) Right are wrong are based on electrochemical signals sent in the body. We have shown this time and time again in science. My body (through nature and nuture) has been trained to respond to certain stimuli with certain emotions. This is one of them.
I am not trying to be passive aggressive in anyway, I am sorry if anything came off as that. I will say that your constant insults and attempts to bait me into getting upset are getting old though. While that may work with most people, I tend to turn the other cheek in life and at least try to love unconditionally. I admit I have faults as we all do and sometimes it can be hard to love thy neighbor. I just try to remember that I was brought up christian and felt the same need to put down anyone who disagreed with me. I think I tried to come out of christianity with what I considered the core values and apply them even though I do not consider myself a christian anymore, mainly because I feel these values were the best part of christianity.
I just wish more true christians upheld them a bit more.
Feel free to respond to this, and while I do love going back and forth like this, I'd rather not hijack michaels blog for our own purposes. Feel free to contact me directly at spiffomatic64@gmail.com :)